Loading ...Jesus ‘coin’ causes Iraqi outrage
flockwoodIraqis say Marines handed out Christian coins
BAGHDAD (AP) — The U.S. military says an American service member has been removed from duty in Iraq after receiving complaints that Marines were handing out coin-shaped medals promoting Christianity.
Sunni officials in the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah say the coins were given to Iraqis at an entry checkpoint and had biblical verses written on them in Arabic.
McClatchy Newspapers, which first broke the story, reports that the silver-colored medal quoted John 3:16 on one side and asked “Where will you spend eternity” on the other.
A military statement says the service member was removed from his duties Friday “amid concerns from Fallujah’s citizens regarding reports of inappropriate conduct.”
The statement says U.S. troops are prohibited “from proselytizing any religion, faith or practices” and the military is investigating the reports.
The military promises appropriate action if they are substantiated.
May 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Evangelism takes on a whole different tone when the proselytizer carries a gun.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
There is a time and a place for proselyting; this was not the time or the place.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:57 pm
This is doubly wrong.
First, devout followers of Jesus have no business serving in the military perpetuating a war of aggression against the Iraqis (or any other peoples).
Second, proselytizing by trying to make people of any other religion fearful of their relationship with God, or doubtful about their own religious faith, is contrary to worshipping the God of Love. The early church spread by showing in their conduct how they loved and cared for one another and others outside their community–not by denouncing another religion or other believers, and certainly not by handing out Bibles and tracts.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Many Christian men and women, throughout American history, fought in the military, many gave up their lives, where would America be without the sacrifice of these brave souls? I haven’t always agreed with every move our country has made, but this is still my country, for better or worse, as far as war, I wish there wasn’t a such thing, but this world is evil. Where would we be if we hadn’t of checked Adolph Hitler and the emperor of Japan? If the world was total pacifist, many more lives throughout the world would of been lost overall, so in a sense, WW2 saved lives by fighting. I hated the atomic bomb over Japan, but I believe Japan would of fought to the last man, woman, and child, while more American troops died, so in a sense, even the bomb saved more lives.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 am
Asinus,
To how “early” in the church’s existence are you referring? If you’re speaking of the time of the ancient apostles, of course they weren’t handing out Bibles. The Bible didn’t exist at that time.
However, I do agree that the denouncing of other religions by those trying to spread the word as missionaries does not effectively work. It certainly wouldn’t have worked during my missionary service.
I don’t agree with your conclusion about followers of Jesus not serving in the military, however. I’m sure my father and my father in law, both veterans of WWII and devout Christians, would disagree with you also. If you’re referring to whether or not they should be morally serving in this particular war, that could be effectively argued, but I wonder how a Christian who is already in the military would reject his/her orders if they had joined before the war in Iraq begain….
How would you propose they resolved this dilemma?
June 2nd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
DD, The churches during the first several centuries did have a set of scriptures–the Jewish Scriptures, in a Greek translation called the Septuagent (LXX). Those are the scriptures several of the eventual New Testament books refer to. Granted, there were some early Christians who rejected the Jewish Scriptures; they were declared to be heretics by the orthodox Christians.
Chritians for the first three centuries did not serve in the military. They took seriously the pacifist views of Jesus and his followers. It was not until Constantine undermined the gospel and politicized the church that political loyalty to Rome trumped the Gospel message of turn the other cheek. Ever since we have seen a strong admixture of nationalism pervading most churches, and with it a readiness to kill in service to the political Prince and the elevation of one’s country over the God of Love.
June 4th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I must agree with Asinus. Nowhere does Jesus ever authorize one human being to kill another one. Period. I think anyone taking Christian doctrine seriously should be a pacifist. To resolve David’s dilemma, I think that anyone given an order to do something he or she believes is wrong has a moral duty to disobey it, and suffer the civil consequences, if necessary. Civil disobedience has a long history in Christian thought; its last great exponent was Martin Luther King. We could use a few more Kings today and a whole lot fewer Generals.
June 4th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
How then can you explain the book of Numbers when God had the twelve tribes separate into armies? I don’t believe in cold-blooded murder myself, but I do believe we are to defend our families and homeland against elements that are out to destroy and devour. There is a time and place for everything, war and peace included. Ecclesiastes 3:1-11, verse 3 ‘ “A time to kill”, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; ‘
June 5th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Your right, you cannot find justification for the killing of a human being by Jesus in the New Testament, to which you are referring, correct?
However, his Father did, many times, in the defense of the Israelites and sometimes in “offense” also, even after the commandment of “thou shalt not kill. And if you wanted to get technical about it, that person who made those commandments could very well have been Jesus himself. There are scriptures that would lead one to believe that Jehovah was actually the pre-mortal Christ. And since most of you believe in the Trinity they’re all one in the same anyway, right? So, yes, Jesus has instructed one person to kill another on many occassions, though I’m sure he’d rather we didn’t. It’s one thing for a God who created us to command it, it’s another thing entirely for a human to command it.
I have no issue with someone who is morally opposed to war to protest, for we each have our agency and our conscience to follow. However, I don’t think that my father or father-in-law will have anything to answer for, for following the orders of superiors while defending their country and freedom.
June 5th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
There is a difference between going out here and killing somebody cold-bloodedly, or someone defending their family. I believe God instituted capital punishment for criminals, I believe we have a right to defend ourselves and our families, I don’t believe in total pacifism. Consider this, if you truly believe in never killing to defend yourself or your family, you shouldn’t call a policemen to do it either, that is if you believe all self defense is wrong. If there was no self defense, no stopping evil people from rampant murder, what kind of world would that be? I wish there was no need for self defense, but I can’t see how we could have any kind of safety and peace if we didn’t.
June 6th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Ecclesiastes 8:11 states that when a crime is committed and is not carried out the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong. On the other hand, if we obeyed Matthew 7:12 “the golden rule”, there would be no need to carry out a sentence.
In John 18:25-27, Peter is the disciple that is names as cutting the ear of the servant to the High Priest, but has anyone asked what exactly was Peter doing with a sword? Obviously, he had to be handle the sword with high precision so as only to cut the ear, else he would have severed more.
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this World?
June 6th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
We aren’t in Heaven, we are here, planet earth, you have people in my neck of the woods, who would kill you in a second if you stumbled on to their meth lab, their pot patch, I believe in love, forgiveness, being peaceful, but I also believe in a little common sense, if someone ever tryed to physically harm my wife, children or grandchildren, then they would have to murder me first, any reasonable person would protect their family, or I think they should anyway.
June 6th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Clearly some of you believe in “common sense,” self-defense, following orders, the illusion that you are followers of Jesus, and you defend this anti-Jesus perspective by appealing to the tribal deity presented in some of the Jewish Scriptures.
Jesus repudiated “common sense,” self-defense, or mindlessly going along with the political and/or religious leaders of one’s own society. And that Trinitarian rationalization for trying to saddle Jesus with the blood thirsty ethic of some OT passages is tissue thin. The Trinity was invented in the second century of the Christian era and honed into a doctrine by the 4th century.
There has been a lot of nonsense piled up to rationalize ignoring the teachings of Jesus as developed in the gospels–including nationalism, militarism, “common sense,” trinitarianism, patriarchy, materialism, individualism, self-defense, etc.
June 7th, 2008 at 9:24 am
If someone comes in your house, armed ready to kill you and your family, and you are such a pacifist that you won’t stop them, then what do you call that? I can’t speak for anybody else, but I would consider myself a fool if I layed there and watched them kill me and my family. God doesn’t expect us to be killed, I believe in self defense, tyhat is ‘common sense’, if you aren’t smart enough to take care of yourself and your family, you shouldn’t expect others too, if I believed in pacifism at all costs, then I shouldn’t call the police to stop a murderer from killing my family, total pacifism doesn’t work.
June 7th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Now that it is clear that Mike regards Jesus as a fool, we can move on to think about his straw man of “total pacifism.”
Pacifism, i.e., non-violent resistance to violence and other forms of evil, in fact has been shown to be much more effective (i.e., works better than the use of violence) in accomplishing good results for individuals and society. It does not involve compromising one’s fundamental values in order to keep oneself alive.
The examples of Jesus and Socrates are outstanding instances of recognizing that some thing are more important than keeping oneself alive. The example of Gandhi leading the liberation of India from the frequently violent occupation by the British–without a war or violent revolution–by the practice of non-violent resistance to evil makes the point quite effectively. The same goes for the overthrowing of apartheid in South Africa, and the overthrowing of a repressive dictatorship in the Phillipines in recent years.
By contrast our wars of liberation in recent years in various parts of the globe have been colossal failures to achieve anything remotely resembling lasting peace, in spite of the tremendous loss of lives–agressors and innocents.
Jesus knew better than Mike what is most important and most effective in living up to God’s values and expectations.
June 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
While I agree we are to seek peace, we aren’t punching bags, Jesus never meant for us to be total pacifist, truth is, the meek and mild Jesus you read of in the four gospels, is the same Jesus of Revelation 19:11-21. If you will read this Asinus, you’ll find this isn’t a meek and mild Jesus.
June 8th, 2008 at 6:15 am
Mike do not forget Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
nothing meek or mild about that piece of scripture
June 8th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Genesis 16:11 on the blessing of Ishmael: His hand against every man, and every man’s hand against him.
Matthew 24:6-7 wars and rumors of wars… Nation against Nation… The Bible states that violence will continue until the second coming of Jesus. While there have been peace seeking individuals, do not forget many have lost their lives to the violence they sought to eliminate.
Our beloved savior was crucified–while we know the reason behind it, those who did the evil deed were not aware.
Socrates was given the choice of exile or death-he choose death by the poison of the hemlock.
Gandhi was shot and killed in 1948
Nelson Mandela supposedly is still living, however as president he did have to send troops into Lesotho to quell a suspected coup de^tat. –it seems that he was willing to use force when necessary.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:00 am
I hate war myself, I believe God is love, but God also has a stopping point in dealing with souls, I also believe there are deadlines for all people, saved and lost alike, God saves, but he also removes, even in his removal, it’s all part of his love. I do believe God delights in mercy rather than wrath, but make no mistake, if people continually reject his mercy through Christ, then eventually they will receive wrath, John 3:18, John 3:36. On the other side, we’ll have no war, but right now, we’re on this side, war is as much part of our life as work or school. I know not everybody will receive Jesus Christ in their heart as Saviour, but what those Marines did, took an act of love on their part, in my opinion, sharing the gospel is
not only the right thing to do,Matthew 28:18-20,Mark 16:15, it’s the closest thing to world peace we’ll ever have this side of eternity.
June 8th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Sharing the Gospel is wonderful and righteous, when done properly. These Marines may indeed have meant well, but consider the situation and how they appear to their audience– as armed members of an occupation force that shows no sign of leaving, and as representatives of a foreign government that treats their government with condescension and disrespect. Many Iraqis are deeply suspicious of the US military and government. Put yourself in their sandals for a moment and see if this kind of evangelism looks like world peace.
These servicemen got in trouble because they disobeyed the rules of conduct of the US military. If they cannot manage to serve both their country and their religious convictions then they need to do the right thing and leave the military. Then they can return to Iraq, as representatives of their church rather than as US soldiers, and proselytize as they wish. And accept the consequences, probably.