Have you seen the ‘atheist’ movie?
flockwoodMy wife and I went and watched “The Invention of Lying,” which is billed as the “first ever completely atheistic movie with no concessions.”
And I wasn’t looking forward to it one bit. I don’t like paying $8 per ticket to be preached at. But it turned out to be a fascinating film. Funny, not fanatical. Unlike anything I’ve ever seen.
A laugh is worth a thousand lectures, and this film was a comedy. A sad comedy, if there is such a creature.
Ricky Gervais’ alternative universe has no God and no lying, and it is a miserable, hopeless, soulless place.
Critics are split on the film, according to RottenTomatoes.com.
Movie trailers are available here.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
You only pay $8 for your movie tickets? I envy!
October 28th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Is it spiritual evolutions of homo sapiens, opposite to story of Eden Garden?
October 29th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Julian, are we talking “evolving” or DEVOLVING”? I think “homo sapien” wasn’t actually the term for man before the current Latin based terminology was introduced. Maybe as we discover, we see ourselves AS a god over our territory so much that spirit is delegated to non existence. However, there is the issue of “lying to ourselves” to the point all we have become becomes truth as we see it. That is called DENIAL.
Your choice, but “man” as a whole isn’t evolving or devolving, just individuals, and that is as it has always been, a choice, that only God knows the outcome of.
October 29th, 2009 at 8:30 am
This is hardly an “atheist” movie. It’s just a silly thought experiment. No self-respecting atheist would tell you lying doesn’t exist.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Believing atheism is high risk gambling out of our life. Practicing any religion reduces chances of total loss if there is existence of God and our soul is immortal. Believing any god during life time is adventitious over non-believing any god. Because there is nothing to loose neither in this world nor after death, if there is no god at all. Mater of facts in agnostic world we came out of nothing and go to nothing after death.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Julian, I can’t believe you would write something so cynical. What you’re effectively saying is that we should all do a cost-benefit analysis of whether it is better to at least pretend to believe in Christianity, with the object of going to heaven if Christianity is the “right” religion, and presumably suffering no loss if there really is no God.
I would think that God would far rather a person believe what he honestly believes and live life honestly than pretend to believe something solely because believing in it promises a trip to heaven. If the chance of going to heaven at the end of this life is the sole reason you’re a Christian, Julian, you’ve rather missed the boat, and one wonders about the depth and sincerity of your beliefs. If you believe that God would condemn someone for an honest, though misplaced, belief, that’s not much of a God, in my view. Faith is a gift. God gives it to some people and not to others. Suggesting that someone will run afoul of God because God didn’t give him the same faith that he gave you is a very dangerous and pernicious idea.
I mean, if this is really your analysis, shouldn’t you make a more detailed analysis of what each religion says that its heaven entails? I mean, you’d hate to end up in Christian heaven if Moslem heaven really is better, and vice versa. Maybe if Hinduism offered a bonus along with heaven, you’d convert to that, too. Especially if they served donuts.
October 29th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Caleb, I am sorry for unclearness in my writings. I compared atheism in my previous writings in general term with all believers of God/gods in one hand and atheist in the other hand. I drew a line in simplistic way for comparative analysis and showed advantage of believing God over believing no-god at all. I assume all believers of god and non-god(atheist) would practice accordingly to their religion teaching for the end results. For example atheist may teach to live with practical reasons to make life better in this world, and not to worry about after death (souls is also mortal with body), on the contrary any other religions may teach in different way to satisfy their respective God/gods for happy eternal life with God for immortal souls with present life in happy, healthy and prosperous. Now let us assume at the crush of solar system in black hole atheist’s believe came to be true that there is nothing after death. My point is that in that case what would believers of God/gods loose? In this world by believing God/gods also, every body could enjoy happy and prosperous life if our mind is alert and heart is receptive with little bit of luck. But on the contrary if there is God/god, atheist would loose every thing after death, they would be sent to Hell, no matter how good human being one was at the world.
No believers including atheist can prove scientifically that their believe is nothing but true, as gravitational law is true in whole universe. So we gamble(by faith) and choose one believe over others at maturity. And in selecting one religion over others we should weigh truthfulness of the faith by studying sign of the religion thru its past, present and future and know cost and benefit for justification. Say for example if Christ would say only to follow Him and at the end there is no resurrection for us after death who would follow Him? I would not. Please keep in mind, I also agree with you to follow Him is critical issue not simply to believe.
For my personal believe I gambled over Jesus Christ, assuring myself from His miraculous birth, atoning death, marvelous works(life to dead man, eye to blind etc.etc.) while on earth as well as current personal experience. My gamble over Jesus Christ is calculated risk over all other faiths including atheist, Muslim, Hindu etc. I weighed the benefits other religions offer and found no one like Christ, who came from God and proof that truth by sign. When I see all known scientific laws which are universal, applicable to billions of mile away from where I live in USA, I believe one God who created those laws for His glory. I hope this will clear cynical view on me. May God bless everybody.
October 30th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
In and of itself, there’s nothing wrong with believing whatever you want, god or no-god. The issue becomes problematic when people attempt to force their beliefs on other people through the use of coercion or fear.
I personally believe that god is our invisible friend revamped. When we were children we all had invisible friends to keep us company and help us relate to the world and understand it. As we grew older, our invisible friend became an invisible parent, and this invisible parent is what people in common parlance refer to as “god.”
October 31st, 2009 at 11:59 am
Julian, it seems you are the modern “doubting Thomas,” seeking miracles and signs and symbols, when simple faith should do the trick. The fact of the matter is that nothing that is taught as Christian doctrine — the divine birth of Jesus, his resurrection and ascension, and the lives of the saints — can be proven. If we believe any of this, we believe it on faith. And that’s the point: God doesn’t send you a telegram; you’ve got to take Him (or Her or It) on faith alone.
Julian, if you’re really as worried about the afterlife as you seem, you might want to hedge your bets by joining several religions. I am reminded of the time Fred Sanford was getting on an airplane and triggered the metal detector. He pulled out a chain that had a cross, crescent, star of David, Buddha, and no doubt some Hindu God with lots of arms. Lamont asked him what was going on, and Fred replied, “On the ground I’m a Baptist, but up there I’m not taking any chances.” Maybe you should do the same.
October 31st, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Caleb, when I was a child I acted like “doubting Thomas”, but no more. I said above that Christ during His ministry, proved Himself by signs and miracles to the people of the world like you and me that He came from His Father, the God in heaven. I believed Him believing His great signs and miracles found in the Bible and chose Him the true path among many other different paths prescribed by many founding fathers of religions like Mohamed, Buddha, Krishna etc.etc.
But I wonder why are you practicing Christianity when focus of your life is not preparing you for eternal life (life after death)? Where as Gospel of Christ is all about Kingdom of Heaven, which begins at the end of our current life, correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me you have doubt about perceiving location of Kingdom Heaven in this universe as many modern scientists and reporters have and because of that you are not concerned about “afterlife” like me.
Present life expectancy in America is around 75 years, but as Christ described in two millenniums ago that each and every one’s soul lives forever either in Heaven or in Hell according to his/her deed in this world. For which part of life do you concern the most, 75 years or eternal? It seems to me you do not strive for long-term goal, the 2nd part of our life, which is eternal. Does it sound unrealistic? I think it would not sound unrealistic to modern man like you if a great scientist like Einstein or Steven Hawkins would tell that eternal life begins at the end of this life in a place somewhere in black hole, and man would reach there (heaven) by next century. In nutshell, it is waste of time practicing Christianity, if we do not look for heavenly kingdom to live joyfully forever and act accordingly to achieve the goal (real, not imagination). I am certain that it would not secure ticket to heaven by being a good man only in our society and include everybody in a ship.
You might have different thoughts, and I have respect for it. Because of difference of opinion I heavily depend on Biblical wisdom for justification of any godly related subject. But problem is that you do not believe your simple trick as you suggested above that The Bible is word of God and it is nothing but whole truth, grass dries but His word never dies. So our thoughts may not converse to one point but may go on parallel. It is OK with me.
You must know as being a Christian that a person can not stand on two boats, if s/he does, must fall in a point of time into water. Same way a person cannot hold two or multiple different path of faiths, as you prescribed above for me. If somebody tires like an Episcopal priest and a Bishop did, converting to Muslim as well as Buddhism respectively, in addition to holding Christianity would go nowhere but in hell. There is no middle of the road in Christianity; we are either with Trinity or with the world. Matter of facts I do not sacrifice my Christian identity no matter what (in any circumstances), but that does not mean I have less tolerance for other believers. Three pillars of Christianity are very important for every Christian “faith, believe and LOVE”. I have friends who are Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, Sheik, and Jain (kind of Hinduism). When we get together, we laugh, joke and even discuss with religion for better understanding, and maintain individual respect. I believe Christ came for betterment of individual, if s/he does not accept Him it is their problem, and nothing to do with my personal interest, unless they strike me for my believe.
There are hundreds if not thousands of different religions in this planet. We have to live in harmony by respecting individual believe and allowing freedom to choose any religion. There are many countries especially in Muslim and Hindu countries where conversion is made legally prohibited and prosecute Christian because of their faith and sharing their faith to others for conversion as it was in olden time in Europe. I strongly condemn those laws and social behavior. Each and every Christian has a duty to spread the good news not by violent way but by LOVE, to catch fish. Knowledge of Christianity is not to confide in your house and in Church only as you prescribed earlier but to spread to public. No one installs an electric light under a bed. Knowledge about a truth is not to keep in your head only but to utilize for welfare of everybody. It is you to decide whether to accept or to reject.
October 31st, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Caleb, when I was a child I acted like “doubting Thomas”, but no more. I said above that Christ during His ministry, proved Himself by signs and miracles to the people of the world like you and me that He came from His Father, the God in heaven. I believed Him believing His great signs and miracles found in the Bible and chose Him the true path among many other different paths prescribed by many founding fathers of religions like Mohamed, Buddha, Krishna etc.etc.
But I wonder why are you practicing Christianity when focus of your life is not preparing you for eternal life (life after death)? Where as Gospel of Christ is all about Kingdom of Heaven, which begins at the end of our current life, correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me you have doubt about perceiving location of Kingdom Heaven in this universe as many modern scientists and reporters have and because of that you are not concerned about “afterlife” like me.
Present life expectancy in America is around 75 years, but as Christ described in two millenniums ago that each and every one’s soul lives forever either in Heaven or in Hell according to his/her deed in this world. For which part of life do you concern the most, 75 years or eternal? It seems to me you do not strive for long-term goal, the 2nd part of our life, which is eternal. Does it sound unrealistic? I think it would not sound unrealistic to modern man like you if a great scientist like Einstein or Steven Hawkins would tell that eternal life begins at the end of this life in a place somewhere in black hole, and man would reach there (heaven) by next century. In nutshell, it is waste of time practicing Christianity, if we do not look for heavenly kingdom to live joyfully forever and act accordingly to achieve the goal (real, not imagination). I am certain that it would not secure ticket to heaven by being a good man only in our society and include everybody in a ship.
You might have different thoughts, and I have respect for it. Because of difference of opinion I heavily depend on Biblical wisdom for justification of any godly related subject. But problem is that you do not believe your simple trick as you suggested above that The Bible is word of God and it is nothing but whole truth, grass dries but His word never dies. So our thoughts may not converse to one point but may go on parallel. It is OK with me.
You must know as being a Christian that a person can not stand on two boats, if s/he does, must fall in a point of time into water. Same way a person cannot hold two or multiple different path of faiths, as you prescribed above for me. If somebody tires like an Episcopal priest and a Bishop did, converting to Muslim as well as Buddhism respectively, in addition to holding Christianity would go nowhere but in hell. There is no middle of the road in Christianity; we are either with Trinity or with the world. Matter of facts I do not sacrifice my Christian identity no matter what (in any circumstances), but that does not mean I have less tolerance for other believers. Three pillars of Christianity are very important for every Christian “faith, believe and LOVE”. I have friends who are Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, Sheik, and Jain (kind of Hinduism). When we get together, we laugh, joke and even discuss with religion for better understanding, and maintain individual respect. I believe Christ came for betterment of individual, if s/he does not accept Him it is their problem, and nothing to do with my personal interest, unless they strike me for my believe.
There are hundreds if not thousands of different religions in this planet. We have to live in harmony by respecting individual believe and allowing freedom to choose any religion. There are many countries especially in Muslim and Hindu countries where conversion is made legally prohibited and prosecute Christian because of their faith and sharing their faith to others for conversion as it was in olden time in Europe. I strongly condemn those laws and social behavior. Each and every Christian has a duty to spread the good news not by violent way but by LOVE, to catch fish. Knowledge of Christianity is not to confide in your house and in Church only as you prescribed earlier but to spread to public. No one installs an electric light under a bed. Knowledge about a truth is not to keep in your head only but to utilize for welfare of everybody. It is you to decide whether to accept or to reject.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:04 am
Julian, what do you think happens to the energy in a person when the time come for them to leave this world? Energy/soul, whatever you decide to call it.
As for Atheists, how would they explain that, do they think it just dissipates? How about science, any clue on what atheists’ decide to believe on that end.
I, like you, beleive in the Trinity and the afterlife. I often wonder about the miracles of Jesus and how he performed them.. If we would beleive as Jesus did would we be capable of doing what he did, is this the key to unlocking the brain? How do you figure intelligence in any of these equations, all men don’t seem to have the same mental facilities. It also seems some religions are fashion just to take advantage of this fact. Just a few questions that plague me. Feel free to comment.
November 1st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Julian, buddy, if you truly think that the point of Christianity is being on the right ship when it leaves the port, you’ve missed the boat entirely. The point of Christianity is not what’s going to happen after we’re dead: We’ll all be in the hands of a kind and fatherly God. What Christianity is about is what goes on right here on earth: Jesus didn’t say, “If you love me, worry about the afterlife.” He said, “If you love me, feed my sheep.”
And that’s what it’s all about. Now if you’re like a kid who needs a big reward from Santa Claus at the end of your life for doing what you’re supposed to do, and it appears that you think about this a lot, then I suppose it’s a good thing that Christianity teaches that a reward is there, but the point is not the reward: The point is living a good and kind life on this earth. I mean, the real test is this, Julian: If Christianity didn’t teach that there was a heaven at the end of life, would you still be a Christian? If not, then you need to examine your motives.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Perplexed, human knowledge has limitation, as per scientific laws we can not create or destroy any energy but can transform only from one form into other e.g. coal energy by burning become gaseous form of energy for the same amount of coal burnt, such as carbon dioxide and other matter. Some times in early twentieth century Russian scientists tried to capture human energy which allow us to breath for metabolic functions in our body and keep us alive, by keeping a dieing patient in a glass box, to study on our soul. But you know our energy is more complicated than black matter scientists found in universe recently. When we could find out what constituted our energy, then I believe we would discover God’s spirit, because our spirit is related with God’s spirit, He created us with His own image, as found in Genesis. And then, only one God (religion) would be established for all mankind scientifically, until then we would find varieties of path that lead to different God/gods or to no-god.
Only person on earth who could tell what happen to our souls after death, the person who has blue print of our make up and He are our Lord Jesus Christ. As per Christ’s answer to a question, regarding ownership of a wife who married to five brothers one after another when each brother died, we find our souls remain in spirit only, but interestingly we also find in the Bible that we would be resurrected with our own body, as Christ did and showed to “doubting Thomas” at the catastrophic end of our beloved world. It sounds strange, because we have no clue other than Biblical truths. I wonder with two facts in relation to afterlife that a) God took three days to resurrect Jesus Christ with His same body and b) Christ in the name of His father in a matter of second bring back soul to a 3-day-old decomposed body (Mary’s brother). It gives me sense that it is a complicated bio-spiritual process only God knows who have blue print of homo sapience species.
We can do miracle with combination of godly spirit as Christ suggested by a small amount of pure heart like master seed. We know in any chemical reaction, room temperature is important; likewise pure heart is important for any miracle. But our thorny mind (doubt)(ref. parable of sowing seed by a farmer) over shadow our pure heart often, like virus in a computer. We do not need PhD to live with the God; all of Christ’s disciples and audiences were illiterates. In modern time Saint Peter would get Nobel Price in medicine for his works on giving life to a dead man who felt from a 2nd floor of a house, while they were praying late hours. Faith by reasons (oppose to blind faith) is strong foundation, no wind could fall them apart. But still it is mystery as happen to Peter when denying Christ 3 times and that is the challenge of our life. Pleasure to have any comment in any angle of our life.
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:08 am
Caleb, you missed the important cause and effect point of Christianity. The famous two commandments a) love our God with whole heart and strength and b) love our neighbor as ourselves, are the cause and effect would be in paradise with God. Needless to say that with these two commandments cover Christ’s command to feed His sheep here on earth. What you missed is the effect of following the commandments, to be in paradise. If good and kind as you suggested above would enter the kingdom of heaven, then Nicodemus would have been the 1st person, who prayed and fast regularly and even donated his wealth to poor. But you know Christ’s answer and he went away with disappointment. By the way do you believe in individual resurrection with our present body?
You are wrong, not only I, even Christ’s disciples were worried about going to heaven. When Nicodemus went away, His disciples asked Him the question, who would then go to heaven? Christ did not tell them do not worry about it, you do your good works only! But I believe you know Christ’s answer. From that conversation between Christ and disciples I know it is difficult for you and me to be eligible for heaven’s citizenship without God’s grace. Christ told us not to worry about what to eat or what to wear, but told us to seek kingdom first and God should provide rest. Do you believe kingdom of heaven is within human souls here or somewhere else, as many think?
Your perception about rewards is also wrong, it is true that not only kids but also adults works for rewards, it is a motivational factor for end results. Remember, Christ told during His ministry that there are plenty of home in heaven, so that we do not worry about accumulating wealth here. Is it not reward? Please be noted purpose of Christ’s mission here is to prepare His sheep for Kingdom of Heaven and we called His ministry good news for modern man.
You adopted too simplistic attitude towards Christianity. Here on earth is not the end of the story; it is the beginning of the story. Entries to heaven are not that simple as you suggested. If we remember Christ’s parable about King’s invitation in marriage ceremony and chasing out of those street people who came without clothing, we also find door of heaven is narrow and limited to special persons, not for every body. As it says many are invited but few are chosen.
I know you have difficulty believing The Bible is nothing but whole truth and that is the problem in between you and mainstream Christian Churches. You also would not like the teaching of Saint Paul, who condemned same sex as sin. But he also said that if we do not resurrect like Christ, no body would follow Him. I have a doubt whether the ship you boarded in would reach to actual destination or in different place, only God can tell.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am
“As for Atheists, how would they explain that, do they think it just dissipates? How about science, any clue on what atheists’ decide to believe on that end.”
I doubt I speak for all atheists, but let me try to defend a position here. Why wouldn’t it dissipate? The energy in your automobile’s motor dissipates after it’s turned off. Why would the human engine be any different? As for an afterlife, it makes no sense to me. You remember nothing from the time before you were born. Once we were born, we developed consciousness. After we’re dead, the mechanisms that sustain that consciousness will cease, and we’ll return to the same state we were in before we were born, consciousless. We won’t suffer, because suffering requires consciousness. I know it may not sound like heaven to many of you, but it’s certainly better than hell.
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Cheese, your statement as I understood is that once an engine starts (by birth), it keep running until it shuts off (dead). If I put your statement in hypothetical format it would be like this: “we come out of nothing and go back to nothing.” On the contrary we know the natural law that life begets life. With this principle in mind if we reverse population growth of today’s world, we would end up Eve and the last Adam, the first man of human race. Adam is like atom of any element. And then real question would come who did give life to Adam? With the principle that life begets life, I can safely assume that the 1st man’s life came out from a living being. And that living being is God Himself who created us with His own image as stated in Genesis and our souls return to Him again for judgment after the end of our tour in Eden Garden (this earth) in Iraq, as stated in Gospel? The Book of Revelation supported this statement, as John saw the heaven in his vision.
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
If God is a living being, then he must also have been begotten by a living being as your natural law states. To say otherwise would be a violation of your own rule. God could not have sprouted from nothing, so he must have come from something, and if he came from something, then he can’t very well take credit for creating everything.
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Cheese, what about nuclear energy, what about sun spots, what about anti matter. The energy from a human is so different than any other kind of energy.
I understand why you would like to simplify life but as sure as it is, it isn’t. Thats not a good anaolgy to live by.
Have you ever lost any one close to you, have you ever felt the presence of something greater than you can comprehend.
Even if you don’t beleive in God, who started all this, are we here merely by fluke? I enjoy your input please continue.
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
“The energy from a human is so different than any other kind of energy.”
You’re going to have to do more than ask rhetorical questions to convince me that we occupy some sort of special status in the universe. We’re made of the same building blocks (carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen) as all living beings. The energy that pumps our hearts is no different from the energy that pumps an elephant’s heart or a mouse’s. The DNA with minor variations is the same. Who is to say that other forms of life will not evolve to achieve what we have?
“Even if you don’t beleive in God, who started all this, are we here merely by fluke?”
The honest answer is: I don’t know. I don’t know who or what started spinning the universe, and I’ll probably never know the answer. I wasn’t there when it began, and neither was anyone else for that matter. Unlike most people, however, I’m okay with the uncertainty. I don’t have to pretend like I know something that I don’t, and I don’t have to believe silly things to make myself feel special, i.e. virgin births, talking snakes, people coming back from the dead…
Fluke? If you consider cause-and-effect fluky, then yes. I believe things happen for reasons (liquid water turns to steam when heated past the boiling point), but not for purposes (a personified universe wanted it to be this way). I’m also slightly excited by the thought that maybe we’re not “meant” to be here, but are rather a fragile species circling a temporary sun on a fragile rock that can be destroyed in millions of ways. It’s like we’re constantly living on the edge, and we don’t even really grasp it most of the time.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Cheese, you raised challenging and final question of all truths how living God came into being? It remind me, the same analogical challenging question, which came 1st chicken or egg? Logically any of the two may come 1st and give the same results. But in reality answer to the question is less important, than knowing both egg and chicken are real. The same way both God and His creations, the universe, living and nonliving things and its proper balancing (eco-system) for our survival are real.
Creator may chose evaluation process to create all species from single cell to complex mammal and built a kingdom of living things or He may create individual species and end up look like evaluation. Both ways individually or by evaluation, a species can be created. The Bible is synopsis of creation as well as evidence of existence of living God in the past, present and in future. The Bible is written before man could think logically. It would be nonsense to try to balance every thing seen and unseen by logically. Newton rightly said all human knowledge about truth are equivalent to few grains of sands in a sea shore.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Wow, look at the discussions that pop up when a guy takes sick leave. So I guess I’ve just got to get in on the tail end of this one: So you’re saying that the Bible was written before man could think logically? Let’s think about that a moment. On one hand, if you’re a literalist and fundamentalist and believe the first five books were written by Moses as tradition claims, and the last book was written by John the Revelator, that means Moses couldn’t think logically, and neither could John the Revelator; on the other, if you accept modern biblical scholarship and hold that the Pentateuch was a redaction of at least four earlier works that began some time after the establishment of the Northern Kingdom and ended with Ezra, and that the most recently written book of the New Testament was II Peter and composed some time in the early second century CE–well, either way was a long time for the human race to go without logical thinking. The Bible didn’t drop out of heaven already written. Whether you believe that it was Divinely inspired or not, HUMANS WROTE IT, and the ability to transfer oral stories to print took logical thought.
November 3rd, 2009 at 8:21 am
…And now that I’ve had a night’s sleep, I notice one other thing: though the thread of these postings may have gone off track from the original topic of an “atheist” movie, I’m kind of surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the term “Pascal’s Wager,” because that was the original name of the proposition of belief being somehow safer than unbelief that Blaise Pascal originally made centuries ago. The guy was a mathematical genius just like Isaac Newton, but this proposition is a crock: what if you end up frying anyway because you don’t have some point of your doctrine right, or can’t decide who was correct about the Trinity–St. Athanasius, Isaac Watts, or Barton Stone? They all viewed it differently, and got their differences of opinion from the same Bible. Where does Pascal’s Wager leave them?
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:43 am
Julian,
Arguments from scripture carry very little weight for atheists. When you don’t believe in deities, you find it hard to imagine that they’ve written books. Tell me this though: The Bible never references itself. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the Bible is the written word of God. So why do you think it is, where did you get this idea that the Bible was the written word of a deity?
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Julian, you are hilarious: You prattle on for days about how you’re a Christian so that you can go to heaven, then when I suggest there’s more to it than that, you say that I have a simplistic view of Christianity. Whatever. You are right that even Jesus’ disciples wondered whether they would go to heaven, and specifically which one of them would sit at the right side of Jesus. This was considered a rather low-grade question at the time, as the Bible passages show, and it still is. To paraphrase President Kennedy, we shouldn’t be asking what God is going to do for us, but what we are going to do for God.
Cheese, you raise an interesting question, which you pose to Julian, about why Christians think the Bible is divinely inspired. In law, we have the concept of a self-proving document, that is, a document that has been signed and notarized and is admissible in court or recordable in public records because it is properly authenticated. The Bible is not a self-proving document, and when you think about it, no religious text can be. Anyone can write a book and say in the book that the book is divine in origin, but that doesn’t mean it is. Likewise, even if the Bible did say that it was divine in origin, that would carry no weight, because EVERY religious text in every religion on the planet says the same thing. Of course, Prester John is right to suggest that the Bible was written over a long period of time by people in different places. None of the authors of any of the Bible, perhaps other than the authors of II Peter or another of the later works would have had the whole Bible before them, in any event. (This also ignores the question of what books make up the Bible; the Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox faiths each have a different answer to that one.) The real question is what, if anything, makes the Bible different.
Those of us in the liberal tradition suggest that while the Bible is a very important historical document, and while it contains many wonderful truths, it is neither to be taken literally nor exclusively. I won’t give my famous essay on the three legged stool of Anglican theology, but we Anglicans tend to believe that the Bible is one source of theological truth, but is no more important than church tradition and reason; the Methodists tend to add “experience” to the list as well. So, for us, what makes the Bible special is our church tradition of thinking it to be special, not anything contained in the text itself.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
“So, for us, what makes the Bible special is our church tradition of thinking it to be special, not anything contained in the text itself.”
Isn’t this a little circular, Caleb?
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
John, the atheist movie is about to close. I acknowledge thanks to every body who contributed in these lengthy discussion on the subject which was ever challenging since creation when Adam and Eve challenged God for His supremacy and ate apple (wisdom) to open up new frontier, the challenging world for our survival. Other interesting challenge I remember is building of Babylon Tower for human supremacy and later development of different languages and cultures. Mankind challenges God time and again to push human brain and to avoid boredom. First think scientists assume that there is no God to carry on further research. But our God is merciful; He is patient at anger and kind. God’s love can be experienced staying with Him only but could not be proven, as atheists want to see.
Cheese As I said earlier problem with different believers including atheists is of lack of common reference to believe among themselves. I may laugh and enjoy the subject movie, but that does not mean I believe the idea. There would be always contradiction in real world. For your second quarry about “word of God”, please read Hebrews 4:12 which says “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”. If you read regularly with purpose you would get results. How could we understand Einstein if we have no knowledge about Physics and math? Same way how could we understand “Trinity” unless we read the Bible, pray and meditate with His word?
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm
“If you read regularly with purpose you would get results. How could we understand Einstein if we have no knowledge about Physics and math? Same way how could we understand “Trinity” unless we read the Bible, pray and meditate with His word?”
Sorry, Julian, but I can’t just flip on the belief switch anymore than you can just start believing in the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus, or the wolfman, or dracula, or the flying spaghetti monster. Would you believe in hobbits if I told you to read the Lord of the Rings, pray, and meditate on it? It takes more than that to convince someone. I was born with a brain; I don’t think I should have to surrender my skepticism to figure out the truth. How is faith not a naive willingness to believe whatever you want to. Faith demands no proof, no evidence, no answers; it is self-serving.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Cheese,
“So, for us, what makes the Bible special is our church tradition of thinking it to be special, not anything contained in the text itself.”
Isn’t this a little circular, Caleb?”
Absolutely, Cheese. That’s why it’s faith, not logic. If you’re looking for logic in faith, you’re looking in the wrong place, Cheese. Religion is purely a matter of faith, and you either have it or you don’t. Having faith doesn’t mean that you believe that the Bible is true, or not true, or that you believe, as Julian apparently does, every silly story in it. It simply means that you believe in the power of the love of God to change human beings on this planet, and that these changed human beings will treat each other more kindly than they would otherwise have. Period.
No logic, just love.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Well, I guess if you can admit that it’s completely irrational, we have nothing more to argue about. That’s what I’ve been saying the whole time. Good luck selling that story.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Cheese, I don’t think anyone has ever said that religion was based on logic, at least no one that I’ve ever read. If so, they were wrong. Religion is not a system of logic, it’s a means of motivating people to live better lives. If they do live better lives, it succeeds, and if they don’t, it fails.
People like Julian apparently need a carrot and stick approach, that is, the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven, to motivate them. Fine. If Julian needs to think that he will go to heaven if he’s a good person and be sent to eternal perdition otherwise, and that motivates him to do better, then so be it: The point is that he presumably does live a better life.
I’m not suggesting that religion is necessary to achieve this; if a person has an innate desire to live a good life and be kind to others and, as the Christians say, “do unto others,” I don’t know that I care about the philosophical underpinnings of that person’s belief. By the same token, when I see people use religion to fan the fires of racism and homophobia, I don’t think God is any more amused by it than I am.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
But, Caleb, people use it all the time to fan the fires of all sorts of prejudices. There are entires wars being fought on the basis of religion alone. It isn’t bringing out the best in those people. I don’t even have to mention examples, because you’re already aware of them. When do we stop giving faith (whatever that word really means) a pass and realize it for the destructive, alienating force it is? Too many people support their co-religionists like their favorite sports team, winning at all costs, and I personally think the only way for people to come to their senses is to do away with it.
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Cheese, to you the glass is half empty, and to me it’s half full. Yes, religion is used for negative purposes all over the world. It’s also used for positive purposes all over the world.
Those of use in the progressive wing of Christianity would like to discourage the former and encourage the latter. The problem with trying to argue against faith is that so many people feel the need for it. You may be quite happy as an atheist, but many people need the warm fuzzyness of a religion, and if that’s the case, we should make it be a religion that helps them live better lives. That’s my goal, and as far as I can tell, the goal of liberal Christianity in general. I think the goal of conservative Christianity is far murkier, and has more to do with preserving the past at all cost than trying to persuade anyone to live a better life.
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
If people used their religion just to enhance their own lives, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But they don’t. They use to suppress other people. All too often, it’s a weapon. Kings and Presidents start wars. Religion and Patriotism justify them. And those conservative congregations you speak of are growing faster than the liberal ones. I know you know what Ocham’s Razor is, use it.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Caleb and Cheese both of you need to go further deep into other person’s need. It sounds to me both of you, liberal Christian and atheist think of yourselves as “I am OK, you are Not”.
Caleb, your purpose of living “better living” itself is relative term. To atheist it may carefree living with enjoyment as long breathing prolong; to liberal Christian, enjoy life in the name of god by changing life style when situation warrants; and to main stream Christian, beside living with harmony with all creatures and wealth on earth God created as care takers, they seek God’s Kingdom first. I know now many of you would wonder what is God’s Kingdom. But to live in peacefully in a diversify world, we need to know others need and value their openion. Please refer to the Bible for God’s Kingdom if you want to know. Cheese, main stream Christian showed tolerance after 9/11, though Al-Qaeda declared war against West and Christian. President Bush attacked Afghanistan, with mandates from more than 80% of the people of USA.
There is nothing to fear except God. Fear of God enhance wisdom and understanding of other people. For more detail please see Proverbs 9:10-12.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Cheese , after contemplating our conversation and reading the posts above, I beleive your not a true Atheist, for the simple reason, you are here looking for something. Your intelligent, but you answers simply imply that you chose not to pursue educating yourself in religious matters, it doesn’t show me where you don’t believe. I hope you can find whatever it is your looking for. Its there, but you have to decide how to take it.
November 4th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Julian,
I’d say you’re guilty of the same thinking. You see yourself as okay, and see us as the ones with issues. The only difference between us is that I don’t feel my thinking is in accordance with the wishes of a personified universe. Your faith is so great, it stifles your ability to reason clearly and think for yourself.
Perplexed,
Thank you for the compliments, but I’m not sure what you mean by “true atheist.” Last time I checked there was only one qualification for being an atheist. It seems as if you a stereotypical view of atheists that I perhaps do not fit into. I’m not a militant atheist. I don’t go door-to-door telling people to give up their belief in a personified universe. I just have no use for it. I like to think I’m master of my own destiny.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Cheese, at least we recognized one common negative characters “I” attitude, “I am OK, you are NOT”, which stands as an obstacle in bringing peaceful atmosphere for every body to live. This “I” attitude (my way is high way), creates conflicts among individuals, organizations, society, and finally nations. Other wise this world would have been God’s Kingdom (peaceful place). Mainstream Christians pray daily “thy kingdom come as it is in heaven”, liberal Christians (Caleb) wish by “better living” and atheists (you) hope for enjoyment. Bottom line, we could be in one family under one umbrella with one goal “peaceful world”. We can achieve goal by keeping our individual identity (believe) without clashing each other.
November 4th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Julian, you have an interesting way of looking at things. My impression is that both Cheese and I would be sent to hell under your theology, and yet you claim WE think that we’re okay and you’re not . . . Interesting viewpoint! I’m not saying you’re not okay, just that you appear to have a very limited (and frankly self-serving) idea about what Christianity is supposed to mean.
November 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Here’s my problem with faith as strong as Julian’s. Julian actually believes that he has all the answers. Whatever the situation, Julian will be okay, because Julian has the blessing of the creator of the universe. Oh sure, he’s not arrogant, he’s not selfish, he just wants a peaceful world for all. He’s got all the answers, and he’s got the backing of the most powerful force in the universe. In fact, he can speak for that power, because he’s read the Bible, and he knows what that creator would say if he were here right now. Faith like Julian’s is a drug. It clouds your vision of reality, because it leads you to believe you actually have the answer for everything. People think I’m arrogant, because I don’t believe in a personified universe, but who’s the arrogant one really? Julian thinks he’s got some sort of personal connection with the creator of the universe, that they know each other on a first name basis, that they understand each other. Me? I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t matter one bit in the grand scheme of things. The world will chug along without me. I’m dust and unto dust I shall return. So which of us really thinks their way is the highway?
November 4th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Cheese, you overlook that fact that Julian has taken the time to study religion, he has a good knowledge and working principles of what faith is about. By your own admission, you have chosen not to pursue what knowledge is available to you. How do you know if Julian is right or wrong based on an opinion that has no knowledge of whats being discussed?
November 5th, 2009 at 8:47 am
If my arguments are missing something, Perplexed, please educate me.
November 5th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I just did!
November 5th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I’m sorry Frank, I should have said, “I did.”
November 5th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
No, you didn’t. You just said Julian’s studied more than I have. And even if it were true (I’m not admitting that it is), that in no way refutes my critique of faith.
November 5th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Faith = believing for the sake of believing. It pretty much gives you a license to believe whatever you want to. There’s no guiding principles in faith, just surrender of one’s doubts. This, to me, is a recipe for disaster, and the reason why there are so many schisms in Christianity and other religions.
Answer me this: why does God need people to believe in him? If he’s so powerful, can’t he just make his presence known? I mean, if you’re going to demand that people believe in you and punish those who don’t with eternal damnation, then shouldn’t you do more than give them a 2000-year-old book to make their decision? It doesn’t seem fair at all. And what does he do with that belief? My disbelief cannot erase his existence. How is he hurt by me not believing he exists?
November 5th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Caleb, your statement, “My impression is that both Cheese and I would be sent to hell under your theology”, is miss-understood on my writings. By the phrase “I am OK, you are not”, I mean for everybody.
When we use “I” attitude, problem begins. Such as when i) Liberal Christian thinks only they understand God’s actual love and nobody else and amends existing doctrine as outdated to accommodate need of modern society, overlooking other brother’s understanding; ii) atheist finds Christians are stupid and drug addict, they know everything, there is no mystery of life, everything can be explained and human can be master of its own body and souls; and iii) mainstream Christian finds other groups are in opposite end of truth by denying existence of God, false interpretation of word of God for worldly gain and creating imaginary gods by mythology.
If each and every one remain adamant and extends no hands for shake what would then happen? Truth of matter is that without sacrificing pride of individual believes we could live peacefully by expanding “LOVE” common to every believer. Jesus says “love thy neighbor as yourself” is justification for Christians to live peacefully. I believe atheist and other believers would find something in their doctrine of life to love Christians. Better understanding of all groups of human faiths as well as maintaining democratic value could bring peace in this planet everybody looking for and to avoid catastrophic end of the world. Feel free to criticize.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Julian,
Your view of atheism is completely stereotypical. I imagine you learned about us in church. You don’t have to believe in a deity to be humble; I still feel small when I look up at the night’s sky. My test scores in school provided more than enough evidence to prove I don’t know everything. And so long as I don’t know everything, there will always be mystery to life.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Well, Julian, then let me make the question more specific. Cheese says he’s an atheist. Let’s assume that he is. Does that mean, under your theology, that he’s going to hell solely because of that belief? And I’d appreciate a yes or no answer somewhere in your explanation.
November 5th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Cheese isn’t an Atheist, he has selective comprehension. I would like to say if this goes on in house with children, you will severely harm their mental development.
So Cheese, whats the real story about you and God. Did something happen to you and you felt God didn’t protect you. I just don’t buy what your preaching here, your to smart.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Why do you have a hard time believing that I don’t believe in deities? We’re all atheists in some form or another. Out of all the deities you could believe in, you chose one. You don’t believe in Zeus, Apollo, Odin, or Thor? Why not? What is it about those deities that you find so incredulous, yet when it comes to Yahweh, you’re positive, he’s the one. I just took your disbelief and stretched it one step further.
And you know what? The world didn’t fall apart. The sun still looks beautiful in the morning. I’m still capable of loving my friends and family. I just look at it all as transitory. None of it will last forever, so I try to make the most of my time, because it’s all I have.
Religions are comforting, because they offer a warm, fuzzy existential blanket to hide in. It’s difficult to imagine what really happens to us after we die, and it’s easy to be attracted to the idea that we’re never really going to die, that we’ll always exist in some form or another, and we’ll spend the rest of eternity with our friends and family and the guy who’s in control of it all. Truth is, however, that no one knows what’s out there, no one knows what happens after we die, and our fates are very uncertain. It’s the uncertainty behind death that people are afraid of, and I believe that the best way to prepare for it is just to learn to accept things as they are, not as we would wish them to be. I know this can sound fatalistic, and in some sense it is, but I like to see it as accepting reality.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Cheese, in my time I have and participated in a lot of life experiences, the most humbling one to date was putting diapers on my kids and my Dad. Death is not the worse thing that can happen to you.
By design, be it by man or by God, one of the 2 recognized long ago man needed to something in his life, some sort direction that could explain to him that there were forces much greater than himself. There had to be instilled some sort of Hope. Sometimes it was used as a tool of fear. Reading your posts, you know as well as I do that something exists that put this all together, the name you call it, is not important. Just thinking about the steps of life concluding that there is no beginning or end refutes our existence and we are here. Sorry, I just don’t buy it.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Perplexed,
I didn’t say death was the worse thing, only that of all things, death carries the most uncertainty. For all I know, death may be the best thing ever. I don’t know, and I’m fully willing to admit I don’t know, so until I experience it, I will continue to shy away from attaching labels to it. This also extends to the “beginning” and the “end.” I was not there in the beginning, and I doubt I’ll still be around in the end. Speaking of the beginning, however, saying God made everything is not fully answering the question, because it doesn’t explain where God came from. And if you say God is infinite, then you’re still using the concept of infinity to explain the beginning. You’re just avoiding the issue by replacing an infinite series with an infinite being.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Cheese, do you know that we are all sheep (follow somebody) including you as an atheist (assuming you are atheist)? You too follow consciously or unconsciously to your atheist philosophers’ ideology, may be Darwin as one of them. As per your faith equation in your posting dated 11/5/09 12:54 PM, faith = believing for the sake of believing. You too believe non-existence of God without scientific proof, you agreed that life is mystery. In that sense atheism is also a schism in total believe system. You may avoid fear of God by believing what you understand only and be contented and missed the other side of the coin (presence of God).
We are rational being and because of that we have many minds with many moons (faiths). Next question comes which moon should “I” choose? Knowing the truth by testing, we can free ourselves from illusive moons, as great philosopher of all time Christ said “you know the truth, truth will make you free”.
Truth of deity can not be all of the above multiple choices, but one and only God. Einstein proved origin of universe up to big bang, and stumble at the question of ignition of big bang. But this does not disprove his law of relativity. Same way not knowing origin of Holy God, does not disprove other historical evidence found in The Bible that prove His existence from the beginning till now and for ever. To find out truth about Him we got to study The Bible with light (holy atmosphere) in mind, because God is holy (light) opposite to dark (evil). Total Bible is evidential prove of God’s presence.
I like your quarry about God, why He need people to believe Him. Don’t you like your son/daughter honor you in the society as proud father? You know God created us with His own image and by Christ’s atonement death at cross we also become holy as God want us to be (for those who believe Christ’s death and resurrection and repent as a bondage sinner). Christ as an advocate (attorney) in between you and me (sinners) and to God we also become children of God by His grace. Thus He loves us and do not want us to fall in a miserable places (hell).
Like birth/death; love/hate, light/dark; good/bad; north/south pole; true/false, heaven and hell is also real, whether we believe or not. As all that glitter is not gold, same way all seems to be good works is not holy like God’s holiness. God’s holiness in our mind is standard for heaven or hell.
Caleb, without believing Christ’s atonement death at cross, and His resurrection, no one can understand that we are slave to dark power and could not repent whole heartedly and attain holiness of God He wants. Instructions to attain God’s holiness is available through out The Bible. We need to study His words regularly, meditate and pray asking His wisdom to understand reality of life. It is continuous process until death. I believe you got your clear yes/no answer for heaven and hell as stated in 11/5/09 3:45 pm posting, who to enter Kingdom of Heaven. Please feel free if interpretation is not up to the mark.
November 7th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Julian, whenever someone says that I should get my yes or no from some item of gobbledygook somewhere, that generally means that they don’t want to sign onto a particular answer.
I don’t know if your interpretation is on the mark or not, but I don’t get a yes or no out of it. So, for the record, I’ll repeat the question: Cheese says he’s an atheist. If he is, will the mere fact that he is an atheist, assuming he holds firmly to this belief up to the point of his death, mean that he will be condemned to hell?
I only need one word, Julian, yes or no. I don’t need gobbledygook and I don’t need Biblical quotes. I don’t know why this is hard.
November 7th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Caleb, he doesn’t believe now, but on his deathbed he could believe. When your young and strong, sometimes life can be handled. Then there is an event that could bring you to your knees in pain ,not physical but mental pain, its goes deep into the soul, you can’t eat, you can’t sleep, sometimes it hurts so bad you shake, literally, but you go on, you go on because you have to, if you lucky you’ll believe that day, and you’ll be able to put your faith in God, and ever so slowly He will guide you out of the turmoil your in.
If cheese has this utopia going for him, by all means enjoy it. Wisdom tells me you better have a backup plan.
If cheese is pure of heart, regardless of what he believes , he will go to heaven.
November 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Perplexed, my own personal belief is that God would not condemn someone for an honestly held belief, no matter what it was. I think God is far more interested in what we do than in what we believe. But the point I was trying to make is that folks like Julian do tend to believe that atheists, no matter how they live their lives, are bound for eternal perdition solely because of what they believe. Julian won’t say that’s what he believes, but that’s what I divine from his various posts. It would be nice if he’d answer the question one way or the other, but if he doesn’t want to, I can’t make him.
November 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Caleb, I have doubt about your faith too, I am not sure where you stand, may be you are half Christian and half practical man. I am surprise to know from learned man like you, not to refer biblical point of view whether a person would go to heave or hell, where as the question itself a biblical matter.
Your integrity is in question to me. You said that you can not remark on my writing about its truthfulness as per biblical teaching, but again you remarked as “I don’t need gobbledygook and I don’t need Biblical quotes”. Funny isn’t it? I wonder, why you want yes/no answer from me like judiciary system. If you have godly heart to receive (being a Christian) I am sure you would get answer from my writings. I could be wrong that is different story. Nobody care what you or your Church believe, all I care any Christian teaching must have direct bearing with biblical teaching, if it is not it is false teaching, period.
Perplexed, it is impossible for a man/woman to be godly holy, unless s/he believes Christ’s atonement death and resurrection and repent for sins. I would not use “pure in heart” which is relative term. To me it could be pure but to somebody (say Caleb) it may not. Godly holiness God wants from His creation for judgment in “Judgment Day”, He (God) would not care what “I” believe. Please comment.
November 8th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Caleb, it’s funny how some people believe you can earn your way into heaven by professing perfect beliefs. That seems every bit as futile as trying to earn your way into heaven by perfect works. If God insists that we ace the doctrinal exam before entering the pearly gates then heaven is sure gonna be a lonely place.
Another thing in this discussion that bugs me is this idea that belief is a choice. I don’t know about you, but there ain’t no way that I can will myself to believe in any particular theology. A person can choose to seek out a religion. You can choose to study the teachings, listen to the testimony of its members, and become part of the community. But I have little respect for anyone whose mind is so flexible that they can decide on a whim whether to believe in God, or which one(s).
November 8th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
I disagree Julian, even the ignorant have a place in Heaven.
Jose, life is about choice, if Adam and Eve were here, maybe they could get you to understand.
To be pure of heart, is the key to Heaven, think about that and think what it would take to get there, its not an easy task.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Julian, buddy, I didn’t say the bible was irrelevant to the question, I just wondered what you thought it meant, and was hoping to get that thought in an understandable form, like, oh, a yes or a no to my question.
I assume there is some reason you don’t want to answer, and I’ll press no further. And as for my faith, doubt all you want to, but as they say in the country, I fixed it up with God a long time ago. As far as my integrity goes, at least I can give a straight answer (though you may not like it) to a straight question.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Jose, I agree fully.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Perplexed, would you please give us some example, what do you mean by pure heart? Or how could one get pure hart by doing what that would please Judeo-Christian God in Christian perspective? I would appreciate, it is for better understanding whether any one need to apprehend/believe Christ’s suffering for “my” sins, but still can be righteous to Holy God’s eyes. If my quarry is not clear, let me know.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:11 am
To be pure of heart, in mind, body and soul, your actions carry no malice, your thoughts carry no malice, and your heart is pure, without hate, judgement or prejudice.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:20 am
See, I think that’s a pipe dream, perplexed. If you met someone who really had no hate, no judgment, or prejudice, you wouldn’t see them as wise, you’d think they were an idiot. We’re not born with hate and prejudice, we learn them, and they’re not entirely without purpose. If you found a stranger walking in your living room in the middle of the night, would you ask him his name and wait for him to tell you his intentions or would you shoot first and ask questions later? The point is pre-judging people and situations is not in and of itself always bad; sometimes it’s how we survive.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Thats the rules that you try to live by.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Rules? What rules?
November 9th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Innocence, which is what you describe, is not a rule, but the state of mind of an inexperienced person. Try as we might we cannot return to that state.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Perplexed, as I understand from your posting that by “pure heart” you mean, is absolute holiness in mind like God’s holiness, leaving behind all malice and they (atheist, or other faith) would get God’s grace for heaven. In that sense then follow-up question comes, is it possible for human to attain that state of mind, absolute holy without believing Christ and His suffering at cross as a sacrificing lamb? If your answer is yes, I would then conclude that Christ’s death at cross was unnecessary to free mankind from shackle of evil spirit and Gospel is obsolete. God could save Him (Jesus) from whole trial like He did after Christ’s birth sending them to Egypt from Herod’s atrocity.
You might have experienced that we as human actually can not be absolute holy no matter what. If Christ’s death would not remove our sins by FAITH, like anti-virus software do in computer, our heart would have been heavy by accumulation of sins, and we would turn away from His faith and become atheist or believer of other gods. So Caleb, for straight answer to your question is ‘no”. Atheist or non-believers of Christianity would not go to heaven. If you disagree, please justify your remarks in Christian perspective, because you professed that Christ is your savior. Any comment is appreciated.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Yes, Julian, why did Jesus have to die on the cross? That whole episode bothers me. Jesus is treated as mankind’s scapegoat, but we don’t consider the concept of the scapegoat to be real, do we? Surely, we don’t think that killing a person as a sacrifical lamb will absolve anyone of any sins, do we?
November 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Julian, if you factor in the intelligence level of each individual who is trying to obtain this state of being, almost all goals would be different. They are people on this earth who have been holy and some that continue to be holy. Our opinions don’t reflect of whom God chooses to do His work. We may like to think our input is valuable but when we distort the rules to fit our needs or use them to control or manipulate we have lost the true meaning of the Gospel.
November 9th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Cheese, how do you explain spiritually for those soldiers who died fighting for our freedom in Iraq, Afghanistan as well as in other national interests for soils of America? George Washington led the war of liberation from British for freedom of mankind from colonies. One man’s death saves thousands of people’s direct fighting to get free. Christ’s sacrifice is like that of sacrifice, but difference is that His battle field (our mind), His enemy (evil spirit) and time period (on going) is totally different from conventional war, where we have tangible enemy with immediate results. But Christ’s sacrifice and victory over death (resurrection) is intangible reality, can be felt (understood) by faith only, warm feelings in mind and help staying calm in any situation whether any accident or good news. It is on going process, and final victory comes at the end of universe, when Christ would come with glory (real, not mythology), devil would be crushed to death (another mystery of life).
Because of this nature we have difficulties perceiving the truth of His sacrifice as a lamb and help us in battling with devil every moment, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week against greed, lust, anger, pride etc. etc. Those saints who are experiencing warm of godly LOVE in their heart, would not hesitate to say that without His death, he would have been a different person today. Does the experience not prove reality of some truth of spiritual nature?
November 9th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Julian, thank you for finally answering my question. As for my opinion, naturally I disagree. I don’t believe that God would send someone to hell for an honestly held belief. To put that in the context of traditional Christianity, one has to go beyond the Bible to the traditional Anglican belief that no person be required to believe anything repugnant to his own conscience. As you know, Julian, while I share your love of the Bible, I don’t share your belief that it is the be-all and end-all of salvation. We Anglicans use the Bible along with church teachings and reason to guide our lives. The Old Rector used to say that he believed that God, if confronted with an atheist and an agnostic would prefer the atheist, on the ground that at least he professed a belief, while the agnostic merely sat on the fence.
But as Jose has said earlier, belief is not something that is subject to change because you believe there is a consequence attending to one or another belief; beliefs are held according to our own consciences, and according to the light given us by God.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Julian, if you think that anyone has died in Iraq or Afghanistan to preserve OUR freedoms, you’re not paying attention. They are dying there to preserve America’s interests, whatever our government deems them to be, in those regions. That has nothing to do with preserving our freedoms; if anything, it is primarily retribution against those nations for (allegedly) participating in the 9/11 attacks. As far as I know, there was never any danger that al Queda would invade the US and take away our freedoms, any more than there was a chance that North Vietnam would invade us and take away our freedoms, yet over 50,000 of our troops died in that one. Ditto Korea. War is a horrific thing that is never justified in my mind; as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten over my militaristic roots and become the ultimate pacifist. Personally, I don’t think the entire nations of Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, and Vietnam were worth the life of one innocent American, but obviously our government disagreed.
As far as George Washington, don’t get me wrong, I love him, too, but did you ever wonder what would have happened if we hadn’t broken away from Britain? Say, like Canada? We might well have avoided the whole Civil War if we’d banned slavery when the British did, and we probably would have ended up with a parliamentary form of government which would beat the disfunctional one we’ve gotten. So, it’s not clear to me that even that war was necessary, other than to make sure that the rich merchants of colonial America didn’t have to pay British taxes.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Cheese and Julian, I have a situation that your input would be valuable in.
If someone approach either of you, someone who struggled socially and he asked for help. help that you both could give him, say he is in a situation with his family, he is desperate and he needs employment and just by coincidence you both know someone that needs his services, by the way, this would be 2 separate incidents and neither of you would know about the other’s situation. Would you help him? Would you take the chance on somebody you don’t know but can sympathize with his situation. If you chose yes, would it be because of a moral obligation to society or would it be a christian act of kindness. How could you tell the 2 apart?
November 9th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Another question, as someone who has a higher intelligence, do you feel your obligated to help someone who isn’t as smart as yourself? Clarifying, the problem exists, Charles can’t figure it out, you can, its not a competitive situation, but a life enriching experience.
November 10th, 2009 at 9:53 am
1. I can find reason to help out of sympathy. So long as I’m aware that I can suffer and others are capable of suffering as I am, that in and of itself is reason enough for me to help others. I don’t feel it’s necessary to feel that I have some sort of moral obligation to society. If a Christian were doing the act, you might consider it a Christian act of kindess, but if I were doing it, it would be an atheistic act of kindness.
2. No, I don’t feel I’m obligated to help other people, because I don’t believe in objective moral values. I believe morals are subjective constructs of our mind. We define “good” as what helps us, what helps people we love, or what benefits people we may not know, but can identify with on some level. “Evil” is what hurts us, what hurts those we love, or what benefits those whom we may not know, but view as antagonistic to our ideals. This explains how one person can see an event as good and another can see it as evil, because they’re both viewing through the lens of their worldview. Nothing is inherently good, because nothing is inherently evil. Good/evil is a false dichotomy, and all a matter of perspective.
Thank you for asking such a stimulating question, perplexed, and feel free to offer your own answer.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Cheese, if you have the opportunity to make your space on earth a better place, why wouldn’t you want to help somebody, regardless of you beleive. As humans, we should be helping each other with the more intelligent in the lead, simply because of the way information is processed. The conundrum still exists of at what level or field , who is the smartest and therefore who should lead.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I didn’t say I wouldn’t help other people. Suffering is real, and when I can help alleviate it for one of my fellow human beings, I’ll happily do it.
I don’t think we have to wait for the most intelligent among us to take the lead. Intelligence is a difficult concept to define, and being smart in an academic sense does not equal emotional maturity. The bankers who ruined our economy were very smart people, but they aren’t stepping up to take the lead in helping us out.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Perplexed, your case study is typical example of practicing Christian teaching (found in scripture) to attain “pure in heart” as you stated earlier for entering heaven. It is compulsory task for all Christian to please God, but it is optional for atheist to serve fellow human out of sympathy only, because as atheist’s driving principle is “survival is fittest”. If any Christian, who thinks by his/her conscience it is not necessary to serve people must review his/her Christian faith once more. A Christian who loves to serve Holy God not by mere word but by action as the Bible teaches, must come forward to help the needy (any human suffering). They are motivated to help fellow human, knowing feeding the needy is to feeding Christ. Christ’s definition of neighbor limits no boundary. Most of the humanitarian, non-profit organization was established in early civil society based on Christian principle, such as Red Cross, World Vision, UNO etc.etc.
Think more case study like this and find out whether all invited people of this world are eligible for heaven or not. It is interesting and thanks for your case study.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Julian and Perplexed,
Here’s a question for you. If God is truly all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, why can’t he stop the suffering himself? He created everything, why did he create evil? Why doesn’t he just put a stop to mass murder, gang rape, and abortion? If he loves us so much, why does he let us fight wars, suffer from diseases, and torture one another over natural resources? How does children dying of leukemia fit into his grand and masterful plan?
November 10th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
God gave man free will, all you describe is brought on by the actions of man, even so called natural disasters are subject to how man has treated the earth.
Bear with me I’m thinking out loud.
Are we programmed in our DNA to help people and then by experience and fear do we override that programing?
How are ethical and moral issues different from christian values, where is the line?
Even is your an Atheist, is some of your reasoning power brought forth by christian principals?
It really can go on and on, even as cheese mentioned before about the bankers intelligence obviously didn’t override greed.
November 10th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
But, perplexed, children with leukemia has nothing to do with free will…
November 10th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Its a blood borne disease, I would be willing to bet man had input on that one!
November 10th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
But the child did not.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Cheese, your question is very real for real man like us who see from the day we born from mother’s womb that might makes every thing right (real) and that’s why it is said “might is right” or survival is fittest. It is not difficult to understand that slow and weak are always pressed by mighty hand any where in the world.
So we got impression that Holy God being almighty, why He created all these nonsense. But if we look at the story available in the Bible that everything was good in God’s place until Lucifer the ex-angel, messed up the whole goodness and brought evilness that we see today. I understand that the story of origin of evil power is complex heavenly issues that were told to us in simplistic way. But it is the beginning of evil works and would end by 2nd coming of Christ as stated in the Bible, with the crush of total universe and evolve a new universe with new system, with new reality which would allow dead to be alive and every body living and dead would face trial. We can also realize how complex is the evil power that even Holy God had to sacrifice His only begotten son (Jesus Christ), for goodness to our heart to stop all these malice such as gang rape, murder, war etc, as you stated above, empowered by evil spirit. I assume it is complicated process of living system, including Holy God. Because of complex city of evil power and existence of God the Bible emphasizes on faith and testing, not “seeing is believes” to justify truthfulness of Holy God. It may sounds too religious, but I believe what it is.
November 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Do you believe whatever the Bible tells you, Julian?
November 10th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Cheese, I do believe leukemia in children is caused by man.
November 10th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Yes, Cheese I do believe, the Bible is nothing but whole truth. It may be my problem to interpret the words of the Bible in correct way. But I believe with wisdom from God, everything could be interpreted to the glory of God, in consistence with total truth in the Bible.
Do you like to share with us, anything that you found false or contradictory to deity of Loving God? Some truth may be mystical (unexplainable) by our insufficient spiritual knowledge, but that does not challenge its validity. Many people or Church finds the Bible mixture of truth and mythology or obsolete to present context and uses the meaning in their own way. I contradict with those interpretations who tries to use Bible for worldly gain.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Perplexed,
So whom should we charge with murder when a child dies of luekemia?
November 11th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Julian,
Sure, God tells us not to kill, but He himself is the leading cause of death in the Bible. Sounds pretty contradictory to me.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Pesticide and fertilizer companies is where I would start the witch hunt.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:13 am
so do you believe all diseases are man-made?
November 11th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I beleive that had man followed the intentions of God and had stayed in the Garden of Edan there would be no sickness.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Cheese, if you are owner of a company, won’t you laid off those employees who do not work as per company standard? God set up standards in the Bible, we found Him kind and justice. God is the ultimate owner of total universe including living and non-living, seen and unseen. He can hire somebody at 8Am and some at 4PM and still He pays equal amount as a kind owner, what right do I have to raise question for His mercy? As per God’s justice we can not take laws at our own hand, but He can, He is the supreme authority.
God gave us wisdom and resources to survive against any kind of odd, such as leukemia, AID, hunger etc and spiritual destruction. We live in a process where everybody encounter challenges, some big and some small, but net total challenges and ability to encounter are equal for everybody. God is justice. We can make our life easy by working together with well management of resources. For example we should not misuse sexual blessing by over doing against standard set in the Bible in order to avoid life threatening disease AID and other sexual born diseases.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
We’re going to have to agree to disagree. You guys think the Bible is absolute truth; I don’t. It was written by human beings who lived a long time ago. Since I don’t know who wrote it, I can’t say it was divinely inspired. After all, people lie about stuff like that all the time. If someone approached you on the street saying he had written a book, and it was inspired by God so you should believe every word of it, you’d think he was nuts. That’s the way I see it. Muslims will tell you the Koran is the book of truth. Jews will tell you it’s the Torah. Mormons have their own book. You’re telling me you’ve found THE book, but it looks and sounds like every other “holy” book, and I just don’t buy it. If we were meant just to consult a book to make all our decisions, why are we given options in the first place? Why give us free will, if it’s so important that we make the same decisions as everyone else? If God really can see the future, he knows what decisions we’ll make. Why not just un-create the people who are going to make all the bad decisions? Why bring them into this world, if they’re just going to wind up suffering for the rest of eternity? Bringing people into existence and then punishing them for the choices they make doesn’t seem like a gift to me. If you’re going to curse everyone who doubts, why let them doubt? See, the Christian narrative just makes no sense to me. That’s why I can’t get behind it and put my faith in it.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
So cheese, in conclusion you feel man should answer to no one?
November 11th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Cheese, you stated “…and I just don’t buy it (any religion)” is also an opinion of human (atheist/agnostic) and in this situation “democracy”, majority rule is the best choice for decision making that effect people’s believe system, such as “abortion”, gay/lesbian marriage etc., like any other opinion poll on non-religious issues. We should respect on majority decision, despite contrary to my opinion. It is true that religion/non-religion plays a big roll in our day to day activity.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Perplexed, we answer to whom we choose to. I’m not telling anyone whom they should answer to. I do not answer to the universe personfied, because I don’t believe the universe is a person with emotions and opinions of its own. God did not make us in his image; we made him in ours.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Julian,
Just because a majority of people believe something doesn’t mean they’re right. I will never bow to the majority just because they represent a majority. That’s what sheep do. Do you want to be a sheep? Doubt (doubt in general, not just doubt in the existence of deities) is what motivates change and progress. If people didn’t doubt the assumptions of their those who came before them, nothing would ever change. Science would never exist; people would still be conceding all matters of “creation” to religious authorities. Your religion would not even exist if people did not doubt the religions that predated it. Be your own man; don’t follow the majority blindly.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Cheese, when you close you mind to a subject, how can you be objective?
November 12th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Julian, fifty years ago the majority position in the United States was that states had the right to require that society be segregated by race. A hundred years before that, the majority opinion in the US was that states had the right to have legal slavery (a position that they supported by reference to the Bible). Does that not suggest that the majority is not always right?
November 12th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Perplexed,
My mind is not closed. I can be convinced that deities exist, but I’ll have to witness that deity for myself. I’m a skeptic; I prefer to be skeptical, because I see being gullible as the opposite stance. I’m not going to believe, because some book told me to. I believe that truth should cohere with all reality. Signs that the earth is much older than what the Book of Genesis says lead me to believe that the Book of Genesis is wrong. Rocks don’t lie; people do.
I would say your mind is closed on the subject. You’ve decided that God is real, and you cannot even entertain the possibility that he doesn’t. Churches even tell you not to doubt, that doubting will lead you to despair, that doubting is even sinful in some cases. I think that only highlights the weakness of their position. If they’re so certain that God exists, they should welcome doubt and scrutiny. Science thrives on doubt; religion views it with disdain.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Actually I found some of your post quite refreshing. For me its not about the church and the Bible,as much as its about the relationship I have with my God.
My grandmother always told to be careful what I prayed for,I just might get it, and that has been so true in my case.
You like to refer to science, yet many years ago a group of astronomers and mathematicians and inventors got together and said this is the basis for science an thats the beginning of science. What will we do if at some point in the future what we have known to be a constant in science in now a variable.
Religion is a lot of interpretation, no man has the authority to question God, but if you ask, you will receive, only if your sincere.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Yes, perplexed, it is certain that we will have to re-write the science books to take into account new information and new theories. That’s what Einstein did with his theory. Newton’s equations work under the assumption that space and time are fixed and separate. Einstein proved that space fluctuates, bends, and is inseparable from time. If Einstein had taken everything Newton said on faith, he wouldn’t know his name today. The same applies to Copernicus and Ptolemy. We’d still be seeing a geocentric universe, if doubt had not opened our eyes. We must be able to doubt our assumptions if we’re ever going to discover the fundamental nature of reality. I think faith slows that process down. In order to be open-minded, we must doubt everything and take on faith as little as possible.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Cheese, perhaps I have experienced things you haven’t, I have been in the presence of what I and other believers call holy, I have seen death cheated by love and I have been touched by an entity not of this world. I have searched for logical explanations and found none. To say I’m closed minded just isn’t correct. I hope you realize that the greatest gateway in life is the mind and not confuse progress with reality. Good luck, I have certainly enjoyed this.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Yes, you may have been visited by some entity, but how do you know it was a deity, and not say a ghost or some other spirit? How might your faith in deities have influenced your perceptions of the events in question? Is it not possible that logical explanations might exist even though you cannot find them?
All too often, man tries to use God to explain those things that he simply cannot explain for himself. The sun, the tides, the moon, lightning, storms, earthquakes, rain, solar and lunar eclipses, all were attributed to deities before men of reason discovered logical explanations for them. I know you’ve seen “magicians” on television. They make cars, elephants, even airplanes seemingly disappear into thin air, but you know those are just “magic” tricks, illusions. They aren’t really performing miracles; they’re just manipulating our perceptions.
I would implore you to keep searching for logical explanations for the mysteries of life and to never feel satisfied with the answer “God did it,” because as history illustrates, that answer is usually wrong.