Rudy+

I was just using them as examples. I’m not a particularly conservative NT scholar.

I’m sure that sounds intolerably old-fashioned, not to say stuffy, but was the church stronger or weaker then, when there was a lot more respect for well educated clergy than there is now?

In my own communistic way, I’d prefer to refer to everyone as comrade. After the revolution, no one will be compelled to call anyone Doktor!

Herr Hofrat Univ.-Prof. Mag. Dr. Dr. Schimdt

Maybe the Mexican custom could be something our academic communities could adopt. I imagine there are many days when a university staffer or instructors wouldn’t mind being referred to “Licendciado” or “Magister” rather than being talked down to in the manner Newark describes.

Somehow I think honorifics and titles are meant to recognize the achievement of the person, not to puff that person up or to put others in their place. Sadly too often they are indeed misused. Maybe a more egalitarian approach, or a re-introduction of “comrade” as a form of address, would help the situation.

Personally, I’ve never asked anyone to call me doctor and I’m not offended when people call me by my first name.

By the way, UK Lutheran, they’re very conscious of titles in Mexico, too. Someone with an undergraduate degree is often referred to as “Licenciado.”

If you haven’t seen this movie, it’s a stunner. One of the very best Eastwood movies ever and the ending is as good as it gets…

Rudy+

A friend of mine told me that he was cross examining a lawyer who was selling himself as an expert witness in some area of finance and referring to himself as “Dr.” When my friend asked, “Why do you call yourself doctor?” he replied that he had a J.D., a law degree. “Oh,” my friend said, “So you’re a doctor like I’m a doctor!”

This apparently brought down the house, and no doubt hurt the dear doctor’s credibility.

Herr Magister UKLutheran is right that Germans (who generally do refer to their lawyers as Dr.) have the best titles. When you go on a German web site that has a place to leave your name, they don’t just offer the German equivalent of Mr. or Ms.; they’ve got everything from Direktor General (gotta love the Ks) forward.

That happens in churches all the time, as in “here’s father so and so our associate and our rector Susie”. Some churches call female priests mother, but that’s hard to swallow from adults (as is father–way to Freudian). Whatever you do, don’t call a female priest “sister”. That is beyond strange.

I do, however call priests by the title that is customary in a given congregation, and teach my kids to do the same. It’s respectful, it’s appropriate from a boundary perspective. Just like I call my dentist or physician “Dr” for some amount of time at least (and they often call me Madge, with no disrespect intended or taken) I see it as appropriate for clergyfolk to be called by their titles and for them to call parishoners by a first name (or a title if it is someone quite a bit older).

The role of the clergyperson–sacerdotal priviledge and all that–is something worth discussing, but while we are working that out good manners are important.

Interesting Ms Manners sidenote: if a clergy person has a PhD in a non-related field (like our dear presiding bishop) the proper thing to do is put it at the end of the name and not use “the most reverend doctor _____” That’s only for theological degrees. One would instead write The most reverend ___________, PhD. With capitals of course

I once had a philosophy professor memorably address the whole “Mr./Dr.” issue. She let the whole class know that she expected us to refer to her (and anyone else with a Ph.D) as “Dr.” in our coursework. Pointing out that “doctor” comes from the Latin for teacher, she said something to this effect:

“The person in the hospital is a physician… I’m a Doctor!”

So, I was sure to always refer to her as Dr. And honestly, I think Miss Manners is wrong, and anyone holding a doctorate (academic, medical or professional) who wished to be referred to as “Dr.” should be.

Thankfully, Americans are no where near as obsessed as Austrians, who even have a special academic title for those holding a master’s degree (which are of course combined with Mr. or Mrs. and a whole host of professional titles). Frankly, I wouldn’t mind being addressed as Mr. Master (Herr Magister) every once in awhile by some of the “Dr.s” I know…

But what I wonder about, Newark, is that given the amount of anger you obviously feel at the Episcopal Church, and apparently the Diocese of Newark, why are you still a member? If I felt the way you apparently feel about any organization, the last thing I’d want would be to be a member of it.

You’re well within your rights to, as you say, call only physicians “doctor.” In fact, no less an authority than Miss Manners agrees with you. We “academic doctors” are advised to keep the fact politely quiet. I am happy to go as “Mr./Ms” myself.

My point was that a priest has no right to call me by my first name without my permission. You are willing to extend this very courtesy to the clergy; what am I, chopped liver? Is the church a place of formality, or chumminess?

How dare a mere clergyman address me familiarly, if I may not immediately reciprocate? Is that a test, to see if I have any self-respect?

I would say again, insist on formality with your clergy, or deny it to them in turn. If they want grown-up money from you, don’t let them address you as if you were a child.

EHCulver didn’t really egg me on to reveal my academic standing; I chose to reveal it because I’m tired of Episcopal clergy infantilizing me.

Honestly, you don’t need a doctorate to feel this way.

Just my opinion–this is one of the many straws that’s breaking TEC’s back.